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In its beginning years (1909-1911) there was an abundance of information on the British Boy Scouts (an early independent Scout organisation) easily available. Most of the sources are quoted in the various theses' listed below. The information on the BBS in publications written by authors who are not members of The Scout Association (pre 1967 The Boy Scouts Association or B-P's Boy Scouts Association) can be usually relied upon for factual information. However E E Reynolds in The Scout Movement Oxford University Press 1950 sets all subsequent authors from within The Scout Association on the wrong track by identifying the National Peace Scouts and the British Boy Scouts as separate organisations, and stating that the BBS was formed by Sir Francis Vane (who in fact formed the National Peace Scouts as an alliance of the BBS with the Boys Life Brigade). The latest book to duplicate this error is 250 Million Scouts Laszlo Nagy Dartnell 1985. Where academics have followed such books they duplicate the error. From the 1960's onwards there has been a revival of the issues that created the BBS in academic circles with accurate details about the BBS emerging, with only three publications in this period being badly researched. The academic literature is marked *.
1) CHUMS, Cassell & Co 1909-1911
Volumes 16-19.
30th June 1909 issue 877 page 832 Vol 17 to 29th March issue 970 page 542 Vol 19.
Almost weekly reports on the BBS.
2) REPORT ON THE BOY SCOUTS' MOVEMENT 1910, The Boy Scouts' Association 1910.
Page 5. "We work in harmony and co-operation with the kindred organisations affiliated
with us, such as Boys' Brigade, Y.M.C.A., Church Lads, & c., and they have their troops
of Scouts affilated with us. But, apart from these, one hears daily of new organistions
arising, such as the British Boy Scouts, National Peace Scouts, Ranger, National League
of Scouts, Empire Scouts, National Girl Scouts, &c.,&c."
3) THE WORLD SCOUT, 1913. Publications, Derby.
Three issues only BBS and B-P Scout Troop News. BBS Publication.
Can be consulted in the British Library under publications Derby.
4) TOYNBEE HALL AND THE ENGLISH SETTLEMENT MOVEMENT, Dr Werner Picht, G Bell and
Sons Ltd 1914.
Page 74 Cadet Corps founded (at Toynbee Hall), but given up as too military. Boys Brigade
started at Toynbee Hall.
Page 78 (on the Scout Movement) "In 1909 a regretable division took place, when
Sir Francis Vane, a former resident of Toynbee Hall, who had organised the scouts in
London under Baden-Powell, seperated from him and, in opposition to certain military
tendencies which had made themselves felt in the movement, collected round him the
Peace Scouts ('British Boy Scouts'). These were to represent the idea of an international
brotherhood of youth, in pursuance of which Sir Francis Vane has called into being brother
organisations in France and Italy. About 20,000 boys beloned to his 'Army' in England.
In 1912, however the English organisation broke down through lack of money. Most of the
troops joined the Baden-Powell Scouts, while some continue to exist independently."
Page 81 Troop at Toynbee Hall in 1908 B-P Troop.
5) WOODCRAFT AND WORLD SERVICE, I O Evans 1930.
Page 34 "The seceding Movement is still in existence...under the leadership of
Mr P H Pooley. It has become a Christian Patriotic Organisation."
Page 172 a Christian Movement.
6) HANSARD, Volume 45 16th June 1921 Column 600.
Details of the debate intorducing the Boy Scouts (Protection of Name and Uniform) Bill 1921.
7) THE SCOUT MOVEMENT, E E Reynolds Oxford University Press 1950.
Page 64. "Already, too other 'Scout' associations were being formed each with its own
brand of crankery-there were the British Boy Scouts, the National Peace Scouts,
the Empire Scouts, and so on. Most of these soon disappeared though a few isolated
groups of the British Boy Scouts lingered for may years. These had been formed by
Sir Francis Vane who had been London Commissioner for Boy Scouts, but had quarrelled
with the parent body on the vexed question of militarist tendencies."
8) MAKING MEN, W McG. Eagar University of London Press 1953.
Page 315 Footnote 1 (carried over to Page 316) Vane seceded to start the National Peace
Scouts.
9) TOYNBEE HALL FIFTY YEARS OF SOCIAL PROGRESS 1884-1934, J.A.R. Pimlot, J.M. Dent and
Sons Ltd.
Page 78 Volunteer Cadet Corps founded by Sir Francis Vane in 1886
Page 79 In 1891 the Cadet Corps joined Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment.
Page 180 27th May 1908 Troop founded at Toynbee Hall.
Page 181 Founded by Lukis.
Page 183 Toynbee Scouts contributed to the local scout journal the 'Peace Pipe'
Page 184 Secession in 1910 of the Peace Scouts under a former resident, Francis Fletcher Vane.
Page 186 Lukis criticised the 'Scout'....the creation of a headquarters with a
paraphernalia of inspectors and badges and certificates which threatened to reduce
the movement to the same level of many other existing boy's organizations.
Lukis gave up Scoutmastership in 1911.
10) BADEN-POWELL: BOY SCOUTS CENTENARY JUBILEE 1857-1907-1957, Leslie E Slaughter,
The Boy Scouts Association Queensland Branch, Australia 1957.
Pages 19-21 give details of the defection of Scoutmasters creatibg the BBS in Brisbane
and of an attempt at reconciliation in 1911, and the continuation of the BBS in Brisbane
with one troop until 1921.
11) B.-P.'s SCOUTS AN OFFICIAL HISTORY OF THE BOY SCOUTS ASSOCIATION,
Henry Collis, Fred Hurll, Rex Hazelwood, Collins 1961.
Page 62, Sir Francis Vane......went off to found the British Boy Scouts which still
linger on in odd districts under other titles.
12) BADEN-POWELL THE TWO LIVES OF A HERO, William Hillcourt with Olave, Lady Baden-Powell,
Heinemann 1964.
Page 296 'to his distress (Baden-Powell's), some of the pacifists set up a splinter group,
the National Peace Scouts, while some of the militaritically inclined people established
the British Boy Scouts and the Empire Scouts as an answer to his un-compromising stand
against including military drill in his scheme'
13) SCOUTING IN LONDON 1908-1965, P B Nevill, Trustees of The London Scout Council 1966.
Pages 130-131 Details of Vane's post being abolished and a meeting held to discuss the
London Districts.
Page 171; Note on Vane as First Commissioner for London, early 1909. Page 172 Note on
London Commissioner's post abolished in December 1909.
Page 202; Sir Francis Vane Bt. listed as London County Commissioner 1909.
14) SAGGA JOURNAL - THE JOURNAL OF THE SCOUT AND GUIDE GRADUATE ASSOCIATION *, April, 1968.
Charisma, and the Monolithic Nature of Scouting, Pages 2-21, John Sinclair.
Page 3; The British Boy Scouts - 'except in Gloucestershire is practically negligible'
- pacifist organisation. The author states ' according to Hillcourt (biographer of B-P),
the British Boy Scouts formed a splinter group on the side of a more military organisation.
If the British Boy Scouts of 1920, under their Grand Scoutmaster, the Rev. A Jones
Knighton, K.C.O.R. ......is the same Movement, as seems likely, it must have changed
its position since 1909 - but it does not seem to have survived much longer
15) YOUTH AND EMPIRE *, J O Springhall PhD Thesis Sussex 1968 (unpublished).
Pages 211-249 deal with the history of the BBS from inception to 1914. It offers the
most accurate account of Vane's disagreement with the B-P Headquarters with a highly
reliable chronology. John Springhall took the trouble of seeking out the surviving BBS
and corresponded with P H Pooley Chief Comissioner 1926 - 1971. Springhall's research on
the BBS is the most accurate there has been up until the creation of the BBS's own archive.
16) A STUDY OF ENGLISH UNIFORMED YOUTH MOVEMENTS 1883 - 1935 *, Paul Wilkinson MA Thesis
University of Wales 1968.
Pages 96 - 97 (and relevant notes on page 107) give details of Sir Francis Vane's
secession. The concluding remark about 'Sir Francis Vane's Peace Scouts' are -
'it faied to make any dent in the Baden-Powell movement, and soon fizzled out.'
Although Wilkinson has failed to gain any knowledge about a surviving BBS, or even
understand the impact it made on the developing Scout movement, he offers two otherwise
lost references on the BBS. ie a Report in the Daily Express 4th December 1909.
Interview Sunday School Chronicle and Christian Outlook 17th march 1910 Page 223.
Report in Daily News 1st April 1910.
17) ENGLISH YOUTH MOVEMENTS 1908-30 *, Paul Wilkinson, Journal of Contemporary History 1969
Volume 4 Part 2 Pages 3-23.
Page 17; 'In the autumn of 1909 the rift between Baden-Powell and Sir Francis Vane,
County Commissioner for London, reached breaking point, Vane was dismissed from his
post in Novemeber, and complained that Scout Headquarters had behaved in an
'anti-democratic' manner. It was not until March 1910 that a fuller account of his
differences with the Scout leadership emerged from a newspaper interview he gave:
"Its [Scouting's] controllers were distinguished soldiers who, he felt sure, did not
love the horrors of war, yet, as trained military men. . .it is as a field of
recruiting the Territorials they regard it, and not in its universal spirit.
Personally I do not fear a physical invasion of England by Germany as I fear an
intellectual invasion from the same quarter." *30
*30 Sunday School Chronicle and Christian Outlook, 17 March 1910.
Page 18; Vane announced the formation of his own Peace Scouts which were intended to
avoid the errors of militarism. He claimed there were 85,000 potential members, and
Carl Heath of the National Peace Council and the Rev. Carey Bonner of the
Sunday School Union lent their support. *31 The venture failed to make any dent in
the Scout movement and soon fizzled out.
*31 Daily News 1st April 1910
18) THE SOCIALIST SUNDAY SCHOOLS, THE WOODCRAFT FOLK AND ALLIED MOVEMENTS *, David Prynn.
University of Sheffield MA Thesis 1971 Volume 2.
Footnote Page 225.
'In 1910 Sir Francis Vane, repelled by what he believed to be the militarism and lack
of democracy within the Scout movement, attempted a breakaway in the form of the
'Peace Scouts'. Despite his high rank within the movement and considerable sympathy,
this new body never got off the ground.'
19) THE BOY SCOUTS, CLASS AND MILITARISM IN RELATION TO BRITISH YOUTH MOVEMENTS 1908-1930 *,
J O Springhall International Review of Social History Vol XVI Part 2 1971.
Page 148 Sir Francis Vane mentioned. Page 149 'Most prominent among the 'break-away'
groups were: Sir Francis Vane's British Boy Scouts or National Peace Scouts before 1914.....'
. More details about Vane's influence follow and his disagreements with the B-P
headquaters over militarism.
Page 150 'Vane was extruded from the Baden-Powell Boy Scouts rather ignominiously
to take over the organization of the British Boy Scouts and eventually, because of
his bankruptcy and frequent absences abroad organizing the Italian Boy Scouts, he
left England completely to start the so-called World Scouts in 1912.'
20) NATION, EMPIRE AND THE BIRMINGHAM WORKING CLASS 1899-1914 *, Michael Dennis Blanch.
University of Birmingham PhD Thesis 1975.
Page 306. Springhall notes that in the rift which developed in 1910 between
Sir Francis Vane and the NSL military 'cabal', and which resulted in the formation of
the 'British Boy Scouts' as 'peace scouts', Birmingahm and the Midlands were 'converted'
to the idea of peace scouting with the support of George Cadbury. *1 No evidence of this
has been forthcoming from local sources however, and the indications are that such
support was limited.
*1. Springhall, J.O op.cit pp228 ff. (op.cit = Youth and Empire PhD of 1968).
Note: After 1913 Cadbury's Scouts had become members of the Boys Life Brigade and
absorbed eventually in the Boys Brigade after 1926, hence they go of the stage as
far as research into scout troops is concerned.
21) YOUTH, EMPIRE AND SOCIETY *, John Springhall Croom Helm 1977.
Photographs between pages 94 and 95 centre spread photograph of a BBS Bugler
'in the breakaway Brotherhood of British Boy Scouts, led by P H Pooley, circa 1920'
Page 62; in 1909 led by the briefly appointed London Scout Commissioner,
Sir Francis Vane............(note 67).
Page 69; footnote 64 (from page 61) quote from Westminster Gazette 1st March 1910
- from Vane.
Page 69; footnote 67 From page 62) 'Vane went on to take over the Presidency of
British Boy Scouts, later the Sabbatarian-led Brotherhood of British Boy Scouts...'
Page 72; East London Cadet Corps founded at Toynbee Hall in 1886 by Francis Fletcher
Vane 'who was to prve a thorn in the side for Baden-Powell when, in 1909 he briefly
became London's first Boy Scout Commissioner' footnote 8 on Page 80; - refers reader
to biographical notes on Vane.
Page 125 Sir Francis Vane suspecting motives of military men working for the Scouts,
footnote 23 on page 128 refers to Vane's autobiography 'Agin the Governments'
Pages 157 and 158; Biographical note on Vane.
22) SCOUTING IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA, Don Harris Anchor Books 1981.
Page 7 & 8; A young man J A Ivett was granted registration from London for
this 1st St Peter's troop in a letter dated July 9, 1909. Associated with him
was Joseph Coory, self-styled 'State Scout Commissioner'
....Mr Coory was fined œ4-2/- in court in September 1910 for assaulting the
Inspector of factories, who Coory said had called him insulting names.
Mr Kirkham Evans, Scoutmaster of the O.B.I. troop, in a letter to London
Headquarters dated August 19, 1909, described Mr. Ivett as 'a childish dreamer'
and said that he 'had started many boys' associations and failed with each and
was regarded as a fishy character'. Coory and Ivett, nevertheless, persisted and
joined the 'British Boy Scouts', a splinter movement in England which admitted
only boys of British parentage. They made little headway and were soon forgotten.
23) 75 YEARS OF SCOUTING - A history of the Scout Movement in word and pictures,
The Scout Association 1982.
Page 22. Photograph of BBS Scouts top right.
British Girl Scouts and Sir Francis Vane bottom. The photographs are not acknowledged
as BBS or BGS but clearly are.
24) THE INTERNATIONAL BADGERS CLUB MAGAZINE, Volume 26 Number 5 July 1982.
Penultimate page (both sides) British Boy Scouts Excerps from 'Chums' with pictures
of BBS Badges.
25) THE INTERNATIONAL BADGERS CLUB MAGAZINE, Volume 26 Number 6 September 1982.
Back Page BBS British Boy Scouts BBS Brotherhood of British Scouts
Change of name in 1927
26) BUILDING CHARACTER IN THE AMERICAN BOY *, David I Macleod University of
Wisconsin Press 1983.
Page 143 A major break came in 1909 when, charging insubordination, Baden-Powell
sacked Sir Francis Vane, a radical Liberal who had been Scout Commissioner for London.
Accusing Baden-Powell's group of miliatrism and dictatorial methods, Vane led ten or
twenty thousand boys into a rival British Boy Scouts, but the group withered, and
Baden-Powell sustained his authority.
Page 147 note on Hearst's 'American Boy Scouts', a counterpart to the BBS in America.
Page 157 'United States Boy Scouts' - renamed 'American Boy Scouts' became
'American Cadets' after legal action by the Boy Scouts of America in 1918.
27) SAGGA NEWS AND IDEAS, *(Journal of the Scout and Guide Graduate Association),
September 1984 No 97.
Page 10 Information on the BBS invited
28) SAGGA NEWS AND IDEAS, *(Journal of the Scout and Guide Graduate Association),
October 1985 No 101.
Page 5-8 Scouting and the Working Class Part 1.
British Boy Scouts formed May 1909. Page 6 Vane7s bankruptcy. 100 troops left
change of name to Brotherhood of British Scouts.Page 7 British Girl Scout Troop,
BBS Rover Crew.
29) SAGGA NEWS AND IDEAS, *(Journal of the Scout and Guide Graduate Association),
December 1985 No 102.
Page 3-5 Scouting and the Working Class Part 2.
Page 3 British Girl Scout Troop, BBS Rover Crew. Page 4 Clifton Rover Crew ran an
open youth club.
30) ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL FACTORS AFFECTING THE DEVELOPMENT OF YOUTH ORGANISATIONS FOR
CIVILIAN BOYS IN BRITAIN BETWEEN 1880 AND 1914 *, Martin John Dedman PhD Thesis,
London School of Economic and Political Science, London University 1985.
Page 131; footnote 81 '.....Sir Francis Vane ....'deviant charistmatic..' '..Vane formed
the 'British Boy Scouts' 1911....'
Page 146; "Sir Francis Vane, the County Commissioner for London Scouts in 1909, and
therefore 'an actor in a lower elite position' disliked so many Army officers being
in the movement's elite, and accused the movement of being anti-democratic and unjust.
*162 Vane's accusations resulted in his dismissal as County Commissioner for London in 1910.
Vane attempted to organise his own separate Peace Scout organisation, 'British Boy Scouts',
with himself as President. *163. He was supported in this by the Secretary of the Sunday
School Union (the Rev. Carey Browner) and My T E Harvey, MP (the Warden of Toynbee Hall).
*164 Vane held a high Scout rank, he enjoyed considerable local support after his dismissal,
*165 and he claimed that he had 85,000 'potential' boy members.
*166 However, his new movemnt'..failed to make any dent in Baden-Powell's movement and
fizzled out". *167
Footnotes;
*162 Westminster Gazette 1/3/10 p2.
*163 Westminster Gazette 1/3/10 p2.
*164 P Wilkinson MA Thesis p97.
*165 Baden-Powell's Scouts: An Official History p62.
*166 P H Wilkinson MA Thesis p97.
*167 P Wilkinson MA Thesis p97.
31) THE BOY'S BRIGADE GAZETTE, December/January 1986, The Cadet Corps Movement
and its Descendants.
Pages 30 & 31, Article on the Cadet Movement with special mention of the BBS.
Photographs of Ted Scott and the 4th Balham.
32) 250 MILLION SCOUTS, Laszlo Nagy Dartnell 1985.
Page 67 'A more insidious threat was posed by ambitious rivals who wanted to jump on
the Scout bandwagon and use B.P.'s methods for personal profit. A number of dissident
movements appeared, among them the National Peace Scouts who advocated an obscure kind
of pacifism; the Empire Scouts who were blatantly militaristic and the
British Boy Scouts who stood for aggressive nationalism.'
33) THE CHARACTER FACTORY *, Michael Rosenthal Collins 1986.
Page 197 disaffected former Scouts officials like...Francis Fletcher Vane.
Page 206 It is easy to see why Sir Francis Vane, the first Scout Commissioner of
London, who was driven out of the movement, thought that Scouting had to be rescued
from degenerating 'into simply a recruiting ground for the army'.
34) DEBATE BADEN-POWELL AND THE SCOUT MOVEMENT BEFORE 1920:
CITIZEN TRAINING OR SOLDIERS OF THE FUTURE *, J O Springhall International Review
of Social History Vol CII 1987.
Page 935 Vane 'became the President of the British Boy Scouts'
35) SCOUTS, GUIDES AND VADs *: a note in reply to Allen Warren, Anne Summers
International Review of Social History Vol CII 1987.
Page 947 secession of Vane.
36) BADEN-POWELL *, Tim Jeal, Hutchinson 1989.
Autobiography on B-P. Jeal covers in great detail the creation of the BBS and Vane's
involvemnt with the BBS Capter 10 pages 404-409. By far the greatest coverage of the
BBS's history in any published work outside of the BBS.
Page 366, Details of E P Carter's Boy Guides Brigade founded in 1902. Carter accuses B-P
of stealing his basic idea.
Page 544. Note on Mussolini absorbing Vane's Italian Scouts - the last remaining vestige
of Sir Francis Vane's once proud worldwide organization.
Page 581. Details of case against United States Boy Scouts, counterparts to the BBS in
the USA.
37) BADEN-POWELL, Tim Jeal, Pimlico 1991.
As above in a corrected Paperback edition. Corrections did not concern the BBS.
38) VOICES OF WAR, Published by Leo Cooper Ltd. ISBN 0-85052-444X.
Page 4 contains a copy of a BBS Postcard 'Difficulties in passing the 1st Class Test2
and is a set of cartoon sketches.
39) STORIA DEL RAGAZZI ESPLORATORI ITALIANI, Carlo Colombo, Centro Studi Scout 1990.
passim. Details of Vane's founding of the Italian Scouts and subsequent developments.
40) BOYS OF THE BRIGADE. VOLUME ONE, Robin Bolton, S.B. Publications.
Pages 2 & 3 Annals of the Brigade Movement. Entries for 1910, 1912, 1916, 1920, 1927 & 1938.
Page 64 Details of the Young Life Pioneers amalgamating with the BBS.
41) BOYS OF THE BRIGADE. VOLUME TWO, Robin Bolton, S.B. Publishing.
Pages (xii) & (xiii) Annals of the Brigade Movement.
Entries for 1909, 1910, 1912, 1920, 1927 & 1938.
Page 53 Details of the foundation of the BBS and its conections to the BLB and Young
Life Pioneers.
42) SONS OF THE EMPIRE, Robert H MacDonald, Toronto University Press 1993.
Pages 180,181. "Yet the movement was hardly a year old before it had its first schism:
the Battersea Boy Scouts seceded to form the British Boy Scouts, their scoutmasters
disenchanted with Scouting's apparant flirtation with military organizations" Vane
sypathies towards pacifist side. Taking LOndon Troops with him accepted the presidency
of the British Boy Scouts. The quarrel left scars.
Page 184. Warren ignores the Vane controversy. 1910 250 presidents & Commissioners
140 were military.
© Copyright: The Reverend Michael Foster
1997
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